Perspective On 9/11 And The Invasions Of Iraq & Afghanistan
Statistical Comparisons
Iraq experiences 27.79 Fort Hood shootings a day and averages the equivalent casualties of September 11th every 8.23 days.
Afghanistan experiences 1 Fort Hood shooting a day and averages the equivalent casualties of September 11th every 231.24 days.
Iraq and Afghanistan combined experience 28.78 Fort Hood shootings a day and average the equivalent casualties of September 11th every 7.95 days.
In total, Iraq and Afghanistan have experienced the equivalent of 348 September 11ths or 79960 Fort Hood shootings.
Methodology
Iraq Civilian Casualties: There is high variance between various sources on the number of civilian casualties since the US-led invasion in March 2003. The only source to calculate Iraqi civilian casualties since the invasion is Iraq Body Count, which only counts bodies confirmed by the Western media, leading it to severely under-report the total number of civilians killed since March 2003. Correspondingly, other studies only cover specific time periods. For instance, the most recognized study conducted by Lancet and John Hopkins University in October 2006 listed over 650,000 killed. Data is then extrapolated to represent the March 2003 to September 2010 timeframe.
Afghanistan Civilian Casualties: Currently, no study exists that comprehensively covers the total civilian casualties since the October 2001 aerial campaign and subsequent invasion. Most studies focus on yearly statistics or casualties deriving from a specific method (aerial bombing, improvised explosive devices, etc.). When possible, yearly computations were combined or extrapolated to find a total, as was done in the excellent table provided in Wikipedia’s page on civilian casualties since the US Invasion.
Base Statistics: September 11 Victims: 2,974; American Casualties in Afghanistan & Iraq: 5697; Afghan Civilian Casualties: 45,799; Iraqi Civilian Casualties: 989788′ Total Iraqi & Afghan Civilian Casualties: 1035587; Average Daily Civilian Casualties, Iraq & Afghanistan: 374.18. Click here to download the spreadsheet used to calculate the above numbers.
Sources on Iraq Casualties
Iraq Body Count, http://www.iraqbodycount.org
Casualties in Iraq: The Human Cost of Occupation, http://www.antiwar.com/casualties/
Bush’s War Totals by John Tirmar in the Nation http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090216/tirman
CNN: US & Coalition Casualties in Iraq http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/casualties/
Just Foreign Policy: Iraqi Death Estimates,
http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/iraq/iraqdeaths.html
Wikipedia: Total Iraqi Casualties, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War#Total_Iraqi_casualties
Project Censored: Over One Million Iraqi Deaths Caused by US Occupation, http://www.projectcensored.org/top-stories/articles/1-over-one-million-iraqi-deaths-caused-by-us-occupation/
Sources on Afghanistan Casualties:
CNN: US & Coalition Casualties in Afghanistan, http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2004/oef.casualties/index.html
Afghanistan Conflict Monitor: Civilian Casualty Data, http://www.afghanconflictmonitor.org/civilian.html, http://www.afghanconflictmonitor.org/civilian_casualties/index.html
A Dossier on Civilian Victims of United States’ Aerial Bombing of Afghanistan: A Comprehensive Accounting, http://cursor.org/stories/civilian_deaths.htm
Coalition Casualties in Afghanistan, http://icasualties.org/oef/
AFP: Afghan unrest killed 4,000 civilians in 2008, http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jin59v7_ci05Cs9KtqexpO_1NxKA
Wikipedia Compilation Of Civilian Deaths in Afghanistan, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_of_the_U.S._invasion_of_Afghanistan
Sources On Afghan & Iraqi Casualties
Unknown News: Casualties in Afghanistan and Iraq, http://www.unknownnews.net/casualties.html
The Star: Counting the casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan, http://www.thestar.com/columnists/article/259269
Previous Prose Before Hos reports on Iraqi & Afghan Casualties: Every 9.74 Days, Iraqi Civilians Experience September 11th and Civilian Death Statistics in Iraq & Afghanistan Compared.
[tags]september 11th, iraq civilian casualties, afghanistan civilian casualties, fort hood shootings, 9/11, war on terror, iraq invasion, invasion of afghanistan, iraqi civilians, afghani civilians, deaths, casualties, statistics, graphs, analysis, averages, totals, comparisons, george bush, barack obama, report and statistics on civilian deaths from us occupations, us military, middle east[/tags]
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Unreliable source. Overly inflated. Also that’s what happens in war don’t make the article (especially the graphs) biased toward your view.
Does it make you (us) feel better that the maybe a few thousand less Iraq civilians died than is estimated in a war against the wrong target. Get a grip.
time to whip out my ak-47 and kill some fellow americans 🙂
asshole, that will make things worse.
Yes, Johns Hopkins research published in a reputable medical journal is “lies”.
Moron.
these graphs may e a little inflated but what do a few less afganistani deaths do to you? right? and when an american life is lost its all people talk about for the next week. so what its 1 american life is worth 50 afghanistani’s life to you?
People die every day this is gods will, muslim or not
Well tell your God to piss off if he thinks his “will” is acceptable.
Yeah, you go ahead and see what happens if people stop dying. Ever. You think the world is crowded now?
why don’t you go kill yourself then to help out
The world is not crowded. We have always had the means by which to take care of ourselves. The problem is we’re still pointing fingers saying “they” when it’s been “we” all along.
My thoughts exactly!
and also, think. america has loads of people. china is massivley overloaded, and egypt has around 1/6 of china’s population.
everyone dies someday, gods will or not. i hope you do very soon.
I have a major problem with this article. It list all of the casualties as civilian. If you can’t separate insurgent and civilian casualties, I don’t think you have good enough sources. Do the responsible thing and sit on your data until it’s worth publishing.. Oh wait, this is the internet. Nobody really does the responsible things anymore. 😉
insurgent or not, they are still civilians…they don’t lose their citizenship just for having some extreme beliefs.
Civilians are generally viewed as the non-involved, non-violent populace. Once they begin to fight, they can no longer be viewed as civilians. (Though they are still citizens.)
Exactly my point. There is a huge difference that must be discovered before numbers like this mean anything.
so if say Iraq invaded the United States on some false pretext, and killed your family, if you sat and did nothing you’d be a civilian, but if you fought back at all, if you even dodged bullets, you’d be, what, Michigan Militia and therefore not a civilian?
Anyway, killing in war is murder, whoever the victim, whoever the perp.
Extremist like you make me laugh. Please keep posting!
My thoughts exactly.
Being a citizen isn’t always the same as being a civilian. Civilians are unarmed.
Now I’m like, well duh! Truly thnafukl for your help.
Insurgents should not be counted as civilians. They should be counted as such, and not grouped in with “civilians.” Civilians are unfortunate to die. Insurgents are not.
how many of those 1 milion dead do you think are “insurgents”??? wake up man, and stop defending ur murderous country.
You know what…These numbers are totally fucked up but besides that point…Lets say the numbers are wrong….Well maybe next time you will keep a handle on your boyz cuz thats what the fuck happens when you fuck with America. We will make you realize that it isn’t worth it. 1,000,000 people may have died but the US Military didn’t kill all those people…don’t you guys remember all the suicide bombs in Iraq every day? Do you remember the roadside bombs? They killed a lot of their own….
the thing is not who killed who. this numbers are fact and what it means is a different point.
for sure is if the US woudnt have attack saddam a few 100k civilians where still alive!
The numbers are fucked up based on what? You’re personal opinion? Show me the figures for your source. In February of 2010, I was watching Democracy now the day that the casualty number for U.S. troops in Afghanistan hit 1,500. It was on a Tuesday. The civilian death toll for Afghanis was 52… so far that week. That’s three days. Now, I’m just doing some quick head math here, but since the war has been going on for ten years, these statistics look pretty well accurate. Oh yeah, and “keep a handle on your boys” ???? This country is full of people like you, who refuse to look at the reasons why your own country was attacked in the first place. You refuse to notice that the people whom you’ve elected have been supporting an illegal military occupation in the middle east for over fifty years. Or that your country interferes with democratically held elections held in the middle east, when the outcomes of those elections jeopardize the United States’ financial interests in those countries. You realize that people like Osama Bin Laden and Hussein are horrible, brutal tyrants… but you don’t bother to pay attention to the fact that they were trained and supported by the United states when they committed some of their most horrific war crimes, like when Hussein tested chemical weapons on his own people. Guess what, the people in the middle east do pay attention to that. So why is it that people like you act so surprised when a group of middle easterners who aren’t wrapped so tight decide to come fly a plane into a building? And even that didn’t matter, because the stupid asses, like yourself, in this country don’t even know what their reasoning was for doing it in the first place. You just turned on the TV and assumed that Ol’ Dipshit McBush must be telling you the truth and that Osama Bin Laden must just hate us because of our freedoms. That’s ridiculous… you know why they hate us??
http://www.life.com/image/91878543
http://www.life.com/image/93349997
http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/45590
Take some fucking responsibility for your country’s actions. Yes, September 11 was a horrible atrocity. But, things like that happen all over the world all the time… only difference is, most of the time it’s our fabulously self important country who’s normally got it’s fat little 8th grade educated finger on the trigger, so you don’t pay any attention.
We’re the best country in the world!! U.S. fucking A.!!!
Keep saying that ya jackasses… keep fucking with other countries and killing their children… keep steppin’ up to take their property off their hands for ’em… That kind of thinking is what caused all this mess in the first place.
Plus, they are dying in their own country which have been invaded.
That is the most intelligent thing i have read on this page. Thank you.
Hear,hear!
Agreed.
Insurgents = Civilians with guns that are trying to kill Friendly Forces, therfore they deserve a bullet between the eyes
Friendly forces? Is that an oxymoron or just a moron?
dear lord, Friendly forces? they stormed in and killed everyone cause of one total asshole! sure, it was a bad time, and sure osama needs a bullet through his head, but not everyone else! just supporters. and even they had a reason.
actually he does have a bullet in his head. and he is now fish food.
even if this were over inflated, im pretty sure there have been way more civilian casualties in this war than 9/11, and yet, we continue to make a big fuss about 9/11. people die every day unnecessarily because of someone else’s fault, so what? 😉
for the ignorant, i was being sarcastic on that last note.
“Islam isn’t in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Qur’an should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth”
–Omar Ahmed, Chairman of the Board of CAIR (Council of American Islamic Relations), San Ramon Valley Herald, July 1998
There are thousands of verses and sayings urging Muslims to kill the infidels and take control of the Infidel lands. They are in every chapter of the Qur’an, not isolated to one section. The amount of hate is overwhelming, here are but a very few…
Qur’an 9:123: “murder them and treat them harshly”
Qur’an 4.89: “seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.”
Qur’an 5:51: “Muslims, do not make friends with any but your own people.”
Qur’an 8:12 cp. 8:60: “Instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers”; “smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them”
Qur’an 2:191: “…kill the disbelievers wherever we find them”
Qur’an 2:193: “And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah”
Qur’an 8:55: “Surely the vilest of animals in Allah’s sight are those who disbelieve.”
Qur’an 8:58: “If you apprehend treachery from any group on the part of a people (with whom you have a treaty), retaliate by breaking off (relations) with them. The infidels should not think they can bypass (Islamic law or the punishment of Allah). Surely they cannot escape.”
Qur’an 8:7: “Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels (non-Muslims) out to the last.’”
Bottom line: Don’t piss off the United States. We don’t **** around….
lol, ur a dying breed, why don’t you go research something about rome!
Or England/GB perhaps?
Lol. U f**** around in VN and what did you get?
Read the Old Testament of the Bible. I’d happily put a few hundred on the fact that we/God/Jesus said the same thing just as much if not more than Allah/Muhammad.
People need to move on from this and stop returning to it every year. Sure it’s fine to have a rememberance ceremony or silence or whatever but to use it as a basis for the hatred of an entire religion is just ubsurd. Think of the many millions of Muslims and non-Muslims we’ve managed to kill in the last decade and tell me that all their lives are worth in total less than that of around 6000 Americans.
People say that they are violent because of their religion but it is only a very small percentage of fanatics among them that follow every command to the letter. We have a similar story in the western world. Take, for example, the KKK or the BNP. They are fanatically racist and facist yet most western people would be more likely to shake hands with Nick Griffon than an Iraqi.
We’re locked in a one-sided timeless war of religion that’s been going on for centuries. We out number them, we have better equipment, better training and so we slaughter them and this slaugter breeds hatred in their hearts which causes more to join the fanatics purely for the sake of revenge. So are we really all that much different to them; as fanatics seeking revenge for a deed committed. This isn’t going to end any time soon so both sides need to step back and look at what they’ve actually achieved (pummelling the opposition into submission and forcing our ways on them doesn’t count as achieving).
And just incase anyone pulls an argument about me disrespecting our troops I’m not. I respect them for doing what they have to because if they didn’t then everyone would panic that we weren’t physically protecting ourselves and the world would fall apart in paranoia.
Great respone. People are always blinded by their own faith and will always think theirs is the correct one.
Excellent response. Very well said.
The bible says the same things, and even worse some times. Islam is not the problem. Religion in general is.
Nonsense. If there were no religion, I assure you, we’d still find plenty of other inane reasons to kill each other. People kill, not because of religion, but because of extreme fear and xenophobia. Well, I say people kill, but extremist fanatics would be more appropriate. The reasons they chose to validate their killing are irrelevant. The fact that they kill is relevant.
The reasons they chose to validate their killing *are* relevant. Those reasons are generally illogical, ignorant, and based in a realm that is both infallible and untouchable. Both the Qur’an and Bible are guilty of promoting their followers to be mindless ‘believers’. If people resort to murder, they should at least be sensible about it, don’t you think?
AMEN 🙂
*sigh* Aren’t there several verses in the bible where god tells people to take arms against their brother? Using the book to justify hate towards an entire religion is ignorant. Taliban believe in the harmful aspects of the Qu’Ran just as the Crusaders or WBC believe in the harmful parts in the bible
i opened up my copy of the quran to check your so called quotes and even the first one you quoted is a lie.
“009.123 O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that God is with those who fear Him. ”
stop taking bullshit out of your ass, and if you didnt post wrong shit on purpose, make sure your reading an authenticated copy of the quran, not some shit a racist made up to make islam look bad.
and also your taking many qoutes out of context.
“004.089 They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): So take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of God (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;- ”
this one sounds much like self defence, eliminating any people that are renegades and out to harm you. much like what the us is doing.
“002.191 And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith. ”
again you took a quote out of context. this quote is talking about self defence and self preservation, slay those who suppress faith. you made it sound like it means to slay everybody that is non muslim.
HAHAHAHAHA now the muslims are evil because their bible says they must convert the non-believers to save their souls… You didnt see the graph above??? It shows clearly who the evil and killers are…
p.s. the christian religion says the exact same things, but noone cares because they are hypocrits.
Not all of us are hypocrits and if you’d read propperly what is above you would realise that “the Christian religion says the same things” is basically what we’ve all just said.
no one cares because they aren’t out causing mass chaos and random bombings you fucking idiot. Only when there were still arenas were the christians killing people for not believing. SOME not all, so you can’t call me ignorant you jackass, muslims are extremists and thats the way its been for thousands of years. Do some research other than this decade and you’ll see the attempts in the past for muslim takeovers of THE EXTREMISTS not all.
that is a lie. the qur’an does not state that. it almost never states anything about violence, and if it does it is about self defence. the people who did this are demented maniacs, as it says roughly translated “to kill one life is to lose all those years, and in that is to kill all people.” that states that by killing one person you have killed everyone, and you will forever burn in hell for that crime. murder is one of the worst things you can do in our religion, and by doing that they have pushed themselves out of our religion and are hypocrits. i know how you feel, i lost an uncle in those attacks. but dont hold a grudge against us all, just Osama bin asshole. and he is dead. hold a grudge against the terrorists. for all i care, you can go in there and blow THEM up. but all muslims are not the same, we all have different personalities. after all, there were some terrorists who acted out of christian belief and we dont think all christians are the same. the only reason osama acted that way was because the prophet mohomed stated saudi arabia as a sacred land who none but muslims should enter, and since americans moved there for money, he overreacted and killed thousands for one little thing when he could have just asked. a long story short, dont judge a book by its cover, and most of all dont make bullshit up about a holy book.
sorry, wrong comment. put this one on the guy who said all the nasty things about the qur’an
Well, I guess we’re both just as corrupt as each other then.
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)
If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives. (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
A priest’s daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)
Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)
Ah, the usual idiotic attempt to list verses of the Qur’an out of context. I will respond with the standard answer Muslims have given since the Quran was revealed to us. In regards to war, the rules are very strict. Fight your oppressors and if they want peace, stop fighting. This is what the Quran says. Every practicing Muslim who has read the Quran or learned about Quranic jurisprudence (Shariah) knows this. Taking quotes from here and there in the Quran won’t stifle this truth. Reload and try again.
Who cares about the casualites.
While that’s true Jim, even using the most conservative estimates would give you similar graphs.
So just because something happens in war doesn’t mean it’s right. Imagine if you or your family were killed and labeled collateral damage. Pretty damned myopic. Pretty damned sad.
Most of you are fucking idiots. You only care about people who are american. Its pathetic.
And shut up about Gods will. Fucking fools.
Learn the facts.
Facts? Like the crappy “facts” that were presented here?
Would appreciate mention of the military casualties other than just the US, for example the 283 British military personnel killed on operations in Afghanistan since 2001.
And while we’re on the subject, consideration for the significant numbers of innocent civilians killed in terrorist attacks outside the US since 2001 – for example Madrid and London to name just two.
and there were even some soldiers that were muslim that fought for the USA, and got shot without a moment of recognition.
Please be assured that the majority of US people do recognize your military casualties. When one of yours is killed it is like one of ours. It saddens our hearts.
By “yours”, you mean just the select few that happen to be (at the time) on the same side of the fence with you right? Just like saddam and osama were in the 80’s?
Thats the spirit. Not with us, kill the lot, they’re as good as dirt anyway. I mean, the TV said so. Or the bible. Or whatever is your daily crazy drink.
To be fair, the graph should list the number of casualties that would have occured had Saddam remained in power.
If there hadn’t been American casualties on 9/11/2001, what do you think the Iraqi numbers would be?
My bet: zero.
Honestly? What about the fact that Saddam had a tendency to massacre his own people?
Prior to the U.S. attack on Iraqi soil. Saddam was responsible for exterminating over 300,000 Kurdish men, women and children.
you cited wikipedia. joke.
War On Terror Pie Chart…
A picture is worth a thousand words… More reality based charts on this issue…
So you view all iraqi deaths as civilian? With no distinction between unarmed civilians and armed insurgents. No distinction between those killed by US mititary and those killed by the hand of their own people.
Look at the history of Iraq, the only think keeping it from imploding on it’s self has been outside rule or dictatorship. The only thing that will change Iraq is it breaking into three countries.
Heh. This has trollbait written all over.
I’ll bite.
You know, your penultimate president, you know, the chimp, do you think he ran a nice democratic republic? Or a nice “democratic” dictatorship? Because amongst all the patriot acts, the civil liberties destruction and all the illegal arrest and seizures, it sure as hell looked like one.
Perphaps the only solution would be to split it into what? 50+ countries?
You might not have liked saddam because he didn’t want to sell you oil at the price you wanted to pay, but that’s a very ridiculous reason to interfere in the country’s internal affairs. The killings of iraqis happened for a long time before 9/11, if you were so concerned about them, why didnt the us interfere before?
If you look at the details of where this information comes from, it includes hostile forces in the civilian count. It also doesn’t identify who killed them.
How about some perspective here? The majority of civilian deaths were directly caused by the very same extremists that the US/NATO coalitions are fighting. The article above seems to frame the situation as “civilians” killed by US/NATO. Not to mention the extremists who are counted as “civilians” yet are in fact, armed and organized terrorists. Oh, the numbers themselves are BS too.
“Oh, the numbers themselves are BS too.”
Not unlike your comment.
Please post sources. Thank you.
*sigh* Notice how it says that there isn’t a reliable source? Yeah. Overlooked that didn’t you.
Wanna know something awesome? Special forces reported 12 casualties last year. 8 of which were assisting and hiding the Taliban. You dont hear these facts, because Liberals believe that we can all hold hands and sing Kumbiya. These falsely inflated facts are the reason why we no longer have air support, or artillery support. Special forces are no longer able to operate at night, when there is the least possible danger for civilian casualties.
You ignorant people think that wars in the past were clean. War is dirty, grimy, and its brutal. Civilians die. Soldiers die. Enemies die. There is no getting around that. We send our soldiers there for one reason and one reason only: Eliminate the Taliban. That’s what they are doing. The Taliban are sneaky, slippery, and love to run from a fight. No, this isn’t a war we will win easily, but we wont win it at all if you feed into the lies that the Afghani government would like you to believe.
Furthermore, this is what the Taliban are telling people. They are giving the Army, Marines, SF and other branches a bad reputation so the civilians turn on us. They are telling these “statistics” to the president of Afghanistan, and he is actively aiding them by refusing us air support, artillery, and night ops. In other words, he is making it harder for our boys to fight a clean a war as possible.
“because Liberals believe that we can all hold hands and sing Kumbiya. ”
Or maybe they just believe that we should all hold hands and sing Kumbiya. Maybe “they” believe nothing good will come of hubris and warring and lying and “America’s” interests…
Our “Boys” are women too…
The only thing i hate more then Americans ignorance to alterior motives of the U.S are sexist.
Another note: Its funny that when people realize what our “boys” are doing over there in the middle east they will blame it on the military instead of the government.
Yo, that’s what’s up truhutflly.
This is unbelievably biased. There are two sides to every story- and these are two completely different conflicts. You can’t compare Iraq to 9/11 because the two aren’t related in the slightest.
They aren’t related as far as WHO attacked WHOM on 9/11, but they are most certainly related.
They ARE related because without 9/11, the chimp wouldn’t have an excuse to create the axis of evil and go frollicking through the desert on a wild-WMD hunt.
I’m sure everyone can agree that everyone is human…therefore we make human choices. As in…not every choice is right. Everyone choses a side. Right or wrong, winning or losing, violent or peaceful. God is not responsible for the choices we make…so for any christians saying its God’s will…sure there are times when God called to fight…but almost all of them were in defense. not, in a brutal slaughtering to wipe out anyone who thinks or believes different. SO sure, everyone keep blaming God, keep blaming Presidents, keep blaming other countries! It wont matter..the only thing that matters are the choices you make. Like this author decided to post a very very one sided graph…very. Probably not the best choice…but now he/she is getting critisized for it. It was their choice. So i ask…stop blaming God.
A one-sided graph? Could you let us know why it is one-sided graph? Maybe you know of a more reassuring two-sided graph? Or maybe a graph of many sides? Which side of the graph would be the truth and which the lie?
You’re clearly biased.
And this is a shitty article.
And you’re obviously not and your post is full of intelligent remarks.
How many of these civilians were killed by their own people?
Why does this matter? Do you think all of the lawlessness and murder that goes on in Iraq now is somehow completely unrelated to the toppling of the old Iraqi government and the disbanding of its army and police force? Are we somehow not responsible because we didn’t directly pull the trigger?
For everyone quibbling about the numbers: the most conservative estimate for the number of dead Iraqi civilians listed in this study is around 100,000. One hundred thousand! Even if that ends up being totally accurate and not a lowball, that’s still like 30 9/11s. The point is, lots of innocent people are dead due to our warmongering, and perhaps more to the point, strategic-level incompetence at rebuilding the country after the invasion.
Why has everyone been quiblling about the numbers? Because numbers are being pulled out of hats to suit political purposes. This graph suits me because it reflects the greatest tragedy of the deaths of innocent people. Listen to the pro-Americans getting all defensive as usual. The tragedy starts when somebody picks up a gun. Unlike an innocent civilian,their death is a lesser tragedy. For a country filled with so many insurgents there sure was a lack of WOMD. Does anyone remember that? Weapons of mass destruction? Listen hard,THE INVASION OF IRAQ,AFGHANISTAN,AND LIBYA IS NOT AN ACT OF SELF DEFENSE.
Maybe there’s a graph out there to tell us how many deaths were those of defenceless chilren? The fact that no one would want to see it wouldn’t mean that it never happened.
None. Zero. All were caused by America’s hubris.
Mark and Steve. JP asks a fair question because, while the current version of Iraq’s instability is due to the invasion, the Iraqi people were already suffering from mass civilian deaths under Saddam Hussein. Indeed, estimates for civilian casualties due to his regime are around 1000000 as well, although they are not much better documented than the deaths occuring now. The point is, by ignoring this fact, this article is misrepresenting the reality of the situation.
Which particular hat did you pull those numbers from? No one disagrees that Hussein was brutal and needed to go but was this the choice of the Iraqui people? Was this result their choice? Did anyone care? Why were we spun a story about WOMD? Why wasn’t Saddam’s brutality given as the sole reason? How can you blindly trust what this government tells you?
Correction: What A government tells you.
They were being killed, yessir. I have no clue how many, but thats besides the point, even 1 was too many.
BUT.
If no 9/11, no american childish rampaging. You got a taste of the real world and decided you would smack whoever you wanted, related or NOT to what happened. But yeah. That doesnt matter, right?
It’s really sad how so many of you here try to justify one death with another. “Oh, you killed 2000 of ours countrymen, so we can take away 2000 of yours.” It’s not a game of Risk. Try and justify whether the figures here included insurgents or not all you want, civilians (one or one million) have died.
Citing the Quran or the Bible is redundant for I can read your child’s first alphabet book, take it out of context, and murder in the name of it.
Everyone knows when the Quran was written, it was in the time of extreme intolerance for any religion and it clearly applies then. Now, it just serves as a lesson to all modern muslims.
These charts sum up the war on “terror”. Who’s the terrorist again?
poorly conceived and constructed charts sum up the war on terror? Boy did I have this whole thing wrong.
… 4,731 U.S. and Coalition forces killed in Iraq divided by the cost of the occupation to date, equals 200 hundred and 78 million, 500 and 99 thousand, 800 and 82 dollars per death! Add in the number of Iraqi civilian casualties and the number of Iraqi Police killed and the individual net worth is around 1,284 dollars! By the time you brush your teeth tonight, the net worth of every single human being killed in the Occupation of Iraq will be worth less than… 0 (zero)-
1, 2, 3- Yellow pine, aroma aloft, the stench of a war crime I’d watched.
5, 6, 7- These three boxes suffered the horror of a million gutless tongues.
The marching numbers are a mausoleum of shattered years
11, 12, 13- they track existence down and crush it where it stands
and they wait and wait and rapidly they spring,
16- opening fire! Winding the clock of flesh with invariable death!
…and the laughter? Well it calls out for another set
so politicians can sleep amid the screech of striding tombs.
69- so the oil baron can sleep in his moist sky
92- so no good son-of-a-bitches can cackle doom
in one breath and liberty in the next.
103- If only they could see the true numbers glee
dripping down my skin with the tongue of panic, over the teeth of terror’s shriek!
209- bulletproof vests are for the living.
400- armored hum-Vs are for the red cheeked fortunate and breathing
placing their bets on Wall Street as they wait and wait.
1,038- The poor get poorer and the rich polish the war machine,
the IED, the RPG, Boeing and Lockheed slinging death like seed.
…and the laughter? Oh! The madness in unbridled glee!
2,043- so some arrogant son-of-a-bitch can roll his H3
up to his plasticized life and plop his jangling ass down and smile.
2,865- march on by as our twisted faces turn away and peace is murdered;
3,056- shot between the goddamned lips,
lips shrieking peace against the laughing numbers – wait, wait,
4,508- waiting for the rapid pounce of bombs to stuff them under;
where the climb is steep and there’s no ladder to lift them to love’s agreement.
…and the laughter? It’s like? The laughter’s like thunder!
4,600- manmade and flinging their final flesh!
4,608- slain and this just amuses the golden cockeyed Caesars!
The wealthy cowards won’t cease death’s dying glee!
4,703- knee slapping boxes marching by on their way to the gallows.
4,720- so some low-life degenerate can snuggle up against his tyranny.
4,724- …and the laughter? O! The laughter’s forevermore!
The nauseating laughter under the goddamned sun!
4,731…
© 2010 by mark prime
You probably don’t need to bother copy writing that
lol for sure. I really wouldn’t bother; no one wants it
That’s some horrible artistic prose.
Seems like a good start. Now lets get serious!
Who knows what the truth is.
Who knows the real reasons for any of the wars that we’re having.
Whatever country you’re from, your government will shape all of the information that comes to you in such a way that you are indifferent, or onside. Rarely against. Or, rarely against enough that you’d get up out of your chair and protest/rebel in disagreement.
All I know is that whenever I hear anybody talk about being religious and believing in God (as organized religious texts dictate) with a straight face, then I question their mental capacity. If I had my way then the UK would make each and every person (native and non native) swear oath that they are a Constitutional Monarchist alone. Everything else comes second (religion, etc) and is acceptable only when practised at home and is treated as no more than a ‘belief.’ Never a truth, never a fact, never a way of life. Certainly not a way that forces changes in the way the government works and allows certain privelages to panda to antiquated ‘traditions’ that are contrary to equality.
As for the above statistics; we can never truly know the extent of the damage. With so many facets to this situation it’s safe to say that there is no bad, no good, no right, no wrong. Only the powerful. These wars are not new and for the west are likely to be business related. For the East, belief. Divine right. Displacement. Religious.
Murder will continue to beget murder and as long as people are convinced that a big man in the sky is telling them to kill at peril of their own death or the death of innocents, then this insanity will never cease.
Adults with imaginary friends are idiots.
Consequences will never be the same.
“Iraq Civilian Casualties: There is high variance between various sources on the number of civilian casualties since the US-led invasion in March 2003. The only source to calculate Iraqi civilian casualties since the invasion is Iraq Body Count, which only counts bodies confirmed by the Western media, leading it to severely under-report the total number of civilians killed since March 2003. Correspondingly, other studies only cover specific time periods. For instance, the most recognized study conducted by Lancet and John Hopkins University in October 2006 listed over 650,000 killed. Data is then extrapolated to represent the March 2003 to September 2010 timeframe.”
The Lancet “study” has been debunked over and over again, by the WHO, AAPOR and many others. So has the only other thing that looked similarly inflated, the “ORB Poll”. See here:
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/analysi…aggerated-orb/
Also, this is wrong about the IBC. Below is it’s source list. On which planet are all these “Western media”?
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/analysi…rence/sources/
What about the number of extremists, terrorists, and Al Qaeda that have been killed? Or are we just over there killing civilians everyday?
Yes,you’re mostly killing civilians.
Looking at just numbers is wrong. If 10 Arab Terrorists succeed in killing 1 civilian before being killed themselves. Wouldn’t the tragedy of that one civilian be greater?
Numbers don’t tell the whole story
Yes. Yes,it would.
You can’t argue with people who think that others are less than their self. Those who want war and those who want power, impugn the character of those they wish to marginalize. Weak minds are subverted and then support the rhetoric. You can’t argue with citizens who think that America’s greatness is the same greatness as the caveman or the old west gun slinger. Their thought of the US’s greatness is that “mine is bigger than yours” and they take pride in that. They know little history and few facts. What they do know they twist up in primal outcries for dominance. They can actually look at the mid east and think that the US is not there because business uses the people, via the government’s control of the military, to seek profit. So how do you expect to argue with them? If you list all the facts about profit, they cheer for profit. If you list all the facts about deaths, they cheer that we killed more than they did. Their primal drives are their ruin and as well as their overlords way to command their souls. Many do not know what Elitism means. They think it means book learn’n. No, Elitism refers to those who think that they are so much better than others, that the life of those under them is but a pawn in their game and all are expendable for their ends. They do not know why the US was founded and on what principles. They do not know that the US has fought against the rich and powerful, starting with the King of England and tried to create a society where all are equal under the law. They warned us that the rich and powerful will always try to subvert our country, and now, by appealing to the mass primal fears, those rich and powerful are winning. The government is in place to protect us from tyranny. Our greatest dangers are the rich and powerful, whether it be those who are stealing and funneling our money and resources to the top few who have no loyalty to America, or eventually China, who they are making richer then their selves. America, the great experiment is about to fail if you do not get your head’s out of your butts. Signed, An American
LOL civilian casualties from terrorists killing Iraqis.
Looks like terrorism doesn’t pay…maybe they’ll learn next time.
Bush said they’ll hear us, and they did…
Go blow,joeblow. Sitting back on your fat arse in the good ol’ USA,talking like the total coward we all know you are.
You can always tell,when someone bangs on about war as a good thing,and they’ve never seen a day’s action in their life. Fucking armchair soldiers! Stick to watching football,you gutter-mouthed slob!
?Gracias por el art?culo. Cada vez que quieres leer.
Dolly
Can’t this also be interrupted as radical muslims are very good at killing? It’s just much easier to kill what you are closest too. Is the slant of this chart basically asserting (or attempting to distort) that the US military killed all these people?
To me it says, these muslims are butchers and will kill without regard for civilian or combatant. All they need is a little room to operate and an excuse.
No this can be interpreted that the US is good at killing remotely and with extreme weapons, while littering the countryside with cluster munitions and radioactive dust. The bravery of being out of range indeed. That’s far more cowardly than IEDs or suicide bombings.
Meanwhile, the elements unleashed in all these wars were in large part sponsored by the US or its allies like the Saudis. The Russians experienced this first hand, and are civilized enough to restrain their laughter over the blowback.
Striking, but it has an incredible omission: where are the Iraqi and Afghani military and insurgent casualties?
[…] A terribly depressing representation of some ‘War on Terror’ statistics […]
[…] this chart, posted yesterday by E.D. Kain (click on image to enlarge, or see it and similar ones here): […]
If you really want a complete picture, you’ll have to include all casualties inflicted by the current combatants on each other since the origins of the conflict (i.e., when the West first occupied Islamic lands). The graph would be even more extremely lopsided. Heck, the British were strafing Arabs, Kurds, and Afghans from aircraft as early as 1919 (and Churchill even suggesting gassing them), while the French has to pull out all stops to crush the nationalist movement in Algeria. Israel as well is nearing the 100 to 1 ratio of Palestinian civilians killed to Israelis over the past few years, but they already carried out mass ethnic cleansing in 1948. We can also include the hundreds of thousands of lives lost to sanctions against Iraq in the 1990s.
Take away 9/11 which was carried out by a small group of conspirators, all of whom hailed from countries governed by American puppets and none from Iraq, Iran, Syria, or Afghanistan, and the War on Terror can only be described as a vicious war of destruction against Muslims.
[…] image via) Share […]
If you think God is more important than your neighbor, you’re capable of terrible evil.
If you think some prophet’s words are more important than your brother and your sister, you’re ill, and you’re wrong.
What I would like to see is the numbers of civilian death in both countries 10 years ago. I don’t think there would be a huge difference.
I find it funny that these graphs/this article is calling for perspective when perspective is exactly what it is lacking.
1.) Assuming the numbers are correct…so what? You are comparing a large catch all group “Iraqi civilian casualties” to a very specific group “Americans casualties in Iraq/Afghanistan”. The percentage killed as a whole is the same 3-4%.
2.) The numbers have no perspective. How did the iraqi’s die? Who killed them? What were they doing when they died.
3.) Your numbers are bad, you extrapolated the 2006 study, all the way to 2010. So you took the most violent part of the war, and extended those numbers to the period where violence has declined sharply.
4.) Your base numbers are bad. You are relying on a very shady study. There are a few dozen studies that have attempted to find the number of Iraqi deaths during the war and this one by a magnitude of 10 to 20 times higher than the rest. It very likely had some biases, fraud or bad methodology. Generally you ignore the outlier, you don’t make it your norm.
Just noticed 2 things
1.) I took a look at your methodology, and you didn’t extrapolate it out like I thought, you just took a handful of leftwing/anti-war biased groups numbers (many of whom based their numbers on the suspect John Hopkins study) and averaged them out. So using that same methodology I’m pretty sure I can go to some rightwing/pro-war sites and show that only 152 Iraqis died.
2.) You don’t have a good grasp on deaths vs casualties. They are not the same thing. For the USA soldiers you are using deaths (not casualties), but some of your sources are combining casualties and deaths and some are just using deaths. So you are basically working with 3 different sets of statics…flawed ones at that.
I would very much like you try to show that only 152 iraqis died.
Do you really think the graph would look any different?
How about a graph showing us the deaths of defenceless children? Maybe GLW would enlighten us on how fucking funny he might find that. Believe me,arsehole,whatever way the graph is divided,it’s in there.
This article is misleading and meaningless. Making “death comparisons” by looking at American dead and Iraqi/Afghani dead is stupid- America’s #1 priority, like that of other nations, is the protection of its’ own civilians. If you can reduce civilian casualties on the other side, all the better, but your top priority as a nation is always to protect your own. I have been against the Iraq war from the start, and I would agree that those Iraqis died due to an optional war that we undertook, which was not okay. However, with regards to Afghanistan, we were attacked by a terrorist organization which is linked to their government. It’s sad for the civilians who die, but that’s how wars are. I am all up for trying to minimize civilian casualties, but making a “life of an American to a life of an Iraqi” calculation is just plain stupid. No nation on the face of the Earth values the lives of its’ own citizens as those of the rest, why shouldn’t we?
This number includes strikes on their own people. Iraqi people are split in two and they have an ongoing civil war. To think that all of the Iraqi civilian deaths are from the U.S. Forces and the Coalition is just plain ignorant. Skewing facts to boost a message to the public is not the way to win an argument. kthxbai.
How many people died by the hands of the former Iraq leader?
Its not a contest, the point is that they did a reallybad job and that they shouldn’t just brand all people from that side of the world as terrorists.
So that makes it ok for us to indiscriminately bomb civilians? “You must evacuate before we bomb the shit out of you”. You realize most people are dirt poor, don’t own cars, and can’t just wander off into the desert and hope to survive right? It’s not America where they can just pack a suitcase and wander off to the airport and stay with some relatives in another country. I patrolled this country on foot and by vehicle and most people I saw live in rock fucking houses, selling gasoline in buckets on the side of the road.
I think you need to come out with graphs detailing the deaths 10 years prior to 9/11 to make a better argument.
Iraq was not really part of the war on terror was it. It was a war against a despotic regime that killed people, funded terrorism more than any other country, had made and used WMD, had significant quantities of materals to make WMD, attacked our troops daily, violated UN sanctions, refused to give us access to their WMD as they agreed to do and the UN said they had to do.
Maybe if they gave us access the 1 million would not have died. Maybe, just maybe, it was Saddam’s fault.
good comment, agree
too many armchair generals and international politics gurus, educated by television, love to think that saddam was just a normal guy and that george bush was satan
Maybe, just maybe, it’s Air Force gunship and drone pilots hopped up on meth killing goatherders fault.
[…] here to read the full […]
SO what does that tell ya?
Don’t FUCK with the U.S.A!!!
One man’s freedom fighter is another man’s terrorist:
In August of 1944 Charles de Gaulle’s Free French were transformed overnight from brigands and bandits into the internationally recognized government of France.
………………..brigands and bandits….to the nazi’s…..no one else
>comparing WWII to contemporary operations
are you serious mate
[…] the full article, see Prose Before Hos: Perspective On 9/11 And The Invasions Of Iraq & Afghanistan. via […]
[…] From here. (thanks Karim) This entry was posted in Afghanistan, Background & Analysis, Counterinsurgency, Imperialism, Iraq, Military, US "Defense", War Crimes. Bookmark the permalink. ← As Hamas, Fatah Sign Unity Pledge, Meshal Calls for Palestinian State in 1967 Borders LikeBe the first to like this post. […]
[…] From here. (thanks Karim) […]
So where are the Iraqi and Afghanistan combatant percentages? Oh, right, they are not there… because they are under the civilian list.
Just because they are not wearing a uniform does not mean they are civilians.
Charts are like this you need to rely more on what you DO NOT see than what you are shown.
So, you think an intelligent person, when faced with a much more advanced enemy, should just keep their uniforms on and face them in the open?
(you know, just because they live in the middle east doesn’t make people there dumb)
Are you insane?
that’s not the point. He’s saying that alot of these so-called “civilians” probably are combatants. Even if they aren’t, the combatants killed aren’t being shown, you can’t blame NATO & allies for being good at saving their own necks.
I like how you just baselessly speculate about it instead of looking up the source information yourself. We. Kill. Lots. Of. Civilians. With drones, automatic weapons, gunships, artillery, and so on. Get a grip son, America is not always in the right.
USMC 0311 OIF Veteran
[…] Bron: PHB […]
[…] with the celebration of Bin Laden’s death is captured in this chart, one of several by government_employee (hat tip to the Angry Arab for directing me to it). Predictably, there are numerous comments to […]
[…] well we had 9/11, right!? Yeah, we did, but again, the number of people who died from that is pretty small when compared to the two ensuing wars, even when you also combine American casualties from those conflicts. (Just to make it clear, I am […]
[…] following appeared thanks to RT. This and related graphics are available with discussion of […]
USA, USA, USA
[…] http://www.prosebeforehos.com/government_employee/09/11/perspective-on-911-and-the-invasions-of-iraq… Like this:LikeBe the first to like this post. […]
[…] (Click image for fullsize. Source here.) […]
[…] desensitized to daily news reports of fresh explosions and shootings. On 9/11, we experienced a small taste of the violence and dread that Afghanis and Iraqis deal with on a daily basis. In the US, families […]
I’m skeptical of the accuracy of these statistics, although I wouldn’t be entirely surprised if they were not far from the truth. It’s pretty upsetting in itself that it’s so hard to find an exact estimate of deaths, the attitude taken towards civilian casualties is appalling.
Ah, the usual idiotic attempt to list verses of the Qur’an out of context. I will respond with the standard answer Muslims have given since the Quran was revealed to us. In regards to war, the rules are very strict. Fight your oppressors and if they want peace, stop fighting. This is what the Quran says. Every practicing Muslim who has read the Quran or learned about Quranic jurisprudence (Shariah) knows this. Taking quotes from here and there in the Quran won’t stifle this truth. Reload and try again.
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[…] So, this money you want for primary or higher education, for medical research will come directly as a result of the nearly 1 million undocumented and estimated Iraqis dead or the documented 100,000 Iraqis dead. The number does not matter, because they are both huge numbers. […]
[…] Of the nearly 1 million undocumented and estimated Iraqis dead or the documented 100,000 Iraqis dead, the number does not matter. Both the numbers, are huge numbers. […]
[…] the full article, see Prose Before Hos: Perspective On 9/11 And The Invasions Of Iraq & Afghanistan. | Permalink ∞ […]
[…] 2. Perspective on 9/11 and the Invasions of Iraq & Afghanistan […]
simply criminal
Notice how enemy deaths aren’t visible?
So it seems that everyone on here would like to see more American casualties, or at least a more even ratio? Get a life. I’m sure you didn’t bitch when the towers got hit either. Probably too busy protesting about some 3rd world countries rights to care about whats happening on your own land. We should just seal up the country, no one help us, no one gets help.
Seems like everyone on here would like to see less innocent people die. Please explain to me what 9/11 has to do with our invasion of Iraq?
Any figure on afghan and Iraqi military killed? Taliban killed? or al-Qaeda killed? Or did you combine those numbers into the civilian numbers? Or do you report that these combatants use these civilians as cover for their activities? Horribly informative and grotesquely bias stats, you should be ashamed that you fail to have a number on combatant casualties, that fact alone exposes you as a bias liar who is distorting the horrible loss of life on both sides of the conflict just to prove a point, shameless!
Sorry, saw the pie chart and did not read the following posts, my point was already made. Loss of life on either side is abhorrent yet the idea of not responding to continued terrorist attacks prior to sept. 11 is what got us here in the first place. U.s.s Cole, kenyan embassy attacks, the first world trade center bombing, Somalia, the list is extensive. Passifists are on the right track but are so naive living in an idealist bubble disregarding the realities of world economics and political necessity while reaping the benefits of all the ill gotten luxuries our modern system has provided (free speech, social technology,etc.) . How corrupt and immoral our system is obvious, the people who posted that pie chart only fuel the immoral and corrupt practices they find so evil. Honesty and transparency are the only ways to find peace in the world and in ones self; the problem is that we are all human and never fully operate on an honest and transparent level
It still isn’t by far a proportionate response and it’s an excuse for way more violence gainst the US. When did an eye for a 100 eyes ever work?
So if we kill a bunch of bad guys it’s ok that we kill 1million Iraqi civilians in the process? You need to check your morals.
[…] And speaking of the ‘price of war’, no one pays more dearly than the innocents caught up in the crossfire. […]
[…] Source; http://www.prosebeforehos.com/government_employee/09/11/perspective-on-911-and-the-invasions-of-iraq… […]
[…] Pour une analyse plus détaillée et une explication des sources qui ont servi à l’établissement des chiffres, c’est ici. […]
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